Paper Street

Comment by Chris Wheeler

July 12, 2007 @ 11:13 pm

While I agree that many people use alcohol as an ‘excuse’ to behave differently and do things that they would not do sober for fear of being considered out of control, but I fundamentally disagree with the statement that, “Alcohol does not alter your state of mind.”

It is a proven fact that alcohol can act as a depressant. Medically proven. People who may be depressed before consumption will find themselves increasingly more depressed while drinking and people who are not depressed may very well be more depressed than usual under the influence. I would argue that this is a tangible situation that is directly caused by alcohol and very mind affecting. I have grown up in a house with a father where this is the exact case. I have also seen it increase irrational thoughts to the point where he contradicts himself every couple of minutes.

Under the influence people do a whole number of stupid things that make no sense above and beyond the fact that some people use it as an excuse to do various things. For example, people drive while drunk or get into cars with other people who are intoxicated. With the pressure and focus society puts on this issue I fail to see how it would fit into people using alcohol as an excuse to try this foolhardy and irrational act simpky because they would not do it sober and have always had an interest in doing it under the pretense of alcohol. It is completely irrational and is something commonly done while drunk.

In addition to driving drunk people also have sexual intercourse while drunk. In general people find themselves pregnant, infected, or simply uncomfortable from a sexual incounter. By not using contraception, being more promiscuous, being less selective people demonstrate that they are acting under the influence and completely irrationally when society is in fact pressuring them NOT to do those things. I doubt people say to themselves “I have always wanted to contract and STD while drunk because at least then it will be OK”.

It is common knowledge that people regret doing various things while drunk. Getting someone pregnant or killing someone in a car accident are just two of many examples where people clearly were not thinking properly. If they had been under control of their faculties they would unquestionably not have ended up in a situation where they regret their drunken activities. Alcohol is a direct factor in these types of situations. It altered an individuals mind state and affected their decision making skills.

As a finally thought, I would like to say that alochol affects everyone in a different way. No two people will behave the same while drinking. That goes for physical activity and mental activity. Simply because alcohol does not affct you mentally does not mean that everyone who appears to be mentally influenced is simply putting on an act or using alcohol as an excuse for more wild behanvior. Alcohol is a drug and like all drugs it can alter your state of mind. That is a fact.

Chris Wheeler

Comment by kevin

July 12, 2007 @ 11:30 pm

Depression is not in and of itself a symptom of alcohol consumption. It may make you more depressed, perhaps because you thought the alcohol would make you feel better, and would let you escape your problems. Then you have the alcohol, and realize that it didn’t do any of that, and you get more depressed about the fact that you’re depressed. I see it as a vicious cycle, of which I have experienced both first and second hand.

Drinking and driving is a matter of bad judgement rather than mental impairment. Almost all of the time, people who drink and drive realize that they are drunk when they get into the car. The problem is, they think they can control their car. This thought process, I argue, is psychological – more to do with ego and arrogance than it does with any alcohol related incoherence. “I’ve never crashed the car before, and I don’t feel that bad right now even though I’m drunk, so I’ll just drive home – it’s not that far away!”

Do people regret things done while they’re drunk? Certainly. But people regret things all the time, even when sober. Having sex is probably a bad example. Why? Because people have sex all the time, drunk or not. I still contend that it’s something that you would do, alcohol or not, and alcohol simply lets you do it without immediate social consequence. That’s the point I’m making. Whether they have permanent physical consequences, like STDs, is not a function of your psychological state. It’s more a function of how people conveniently ignore things they don’t want to know.

Comment by Chris Wheeler

July 13, 2007 @ 12:01 am

“I’ve never crashed the car before, and I don’t feel that bad right now even though I’m drunk, so I’ll just drive home – it’s not that far away!”

Thats irrational. Directly related with the amount of alcohol consummed and the fact that they are not thinking clearly and rationalizing. Normal people die while driving drunk, not just the ego maniacs who are too arrogant to realize it in the first place.

Alcohol causes depression. Arguing anything else, at least for me, is rediculous. It is not always, but it can be a symptom of drinking. Look that up before you argue against it, because it is a proven medical fact that like other drugs alcohol causes depression. It is used as an escape, and it is a repetitive cycle but that does not change the facts. It causes depression.

Chris Wheeler

Comment by kevin

July 13, 2007 @ 12:08 am

Alcohol causes depression? My sources say alcohol also causes euphoria (try googling it like I did…). I sense that the science is not actually well proven here.

And, I’m not arguing that alcohol can’t cause irrational thought – I’m arguing that the basis for irrational thought comes from a person’s normally sober psychological state. Drunk drivers who end up killing people are not usually very rational thinkers in the first place, which comes to the forefront when alcohol is used as an excuse.

Comment by Chris Wheeler

July 13, 2007 @ 12:16 am

Alcohol and depression

Written by Dr Achal Misra, specialist and Dr Hamish McAllister-Williams, MRC clinical scientist, senior lecturer and honorary consultant psychiatrist

How common is depression in people with alcohol problems?

Don’t try to ‘drown your sorrows’

Up to 40 per cent of people who drink heavily have symptoms that resemble a depressive illness.

However, when these same people are not drinking heavily, only 5 per cent of men and 10 per cent of woman have symptoms meeting the diagnostic criteria for depression – not that different from the rates of depression in the general population.

About 5 to 10 per cent of people with a depressive illness also have symptoms of an alcohol problem.

Why might alcohol problems and depression occur together?

Alcohol can briefly produce a pleasant and relaxed state of the mind. However, alcohol problems and depression commonly occur together. There are several reasons for this:

both alcohol problems and depression are extremely common. They may occur together completely independently.

people with depression sometimes use alcohol as a form of self-medication, for example either in an attempt to cheer themselves up, or sometimes to help them sleep. Although in small quantities alcohol can briefly lift mood, if used to try to cope with a depressive illness, problems arise. Tolerance to the effects of alcohol can lead to individuals needing it in larger quantities to have an effect.

alcohol in large quantities, whether taken to treat a depression or not, produces a depressant effect on people’s mood.

Why is an alcohol problem together with depression a particular worry?

Alcohol compromises judgement and makes people impulsive and likely to take risks. Alcohol also causes a loss of inhibition and increases aggressive behaviour and violent acts. Because increased alcohol consumption often occurs together with a depressed mood, this is a particular concern.

Depression can lead to thoughts of suicide.

The lack of self-control, compromised judgement and impulsivity from the alcohol can increase the chances of a person attempting suicide.

Generally, a much higher incidence of suicide, both completed and attempted, is associated with alcohol.

The common problems of depression and alcohol are frequently complicated by social problems. Alcohol can often lead to problems at work in the form of absenteeism, sickness and under performance. The loss of a job has a profound negative impact on a person’s financial status and family life.

Marital problems often arise because of an alcohol problem, although it may be difficult to say which started first.

Alcohol can also cause a large number of physical problems. Few, if any organs in the body are spared. Liver problems commonly arise from heavy alcohol intake and can take the form of jaundice (a yellow discolouration of the skin) resulting from hepatitis, cirrhosis of the liver or liver failure. Unchecked these will lead to death. Other common problems include:

stomach ulcers

anaemia

an irregular heartbeat

impotence.

Both alcohol intoxication and withdrawal have a damaging effect on the brain, and can cause:

loss of sensation in the arms or legs

loss of muscle power

profound memory disturbances

a shrunken brain.

Although alcohol can cause you to fall asleep, the quality of the sleep that follows tends to be poor. This is why people with depression should not use alcohol to try to improve their sleep, since it will actually have the opposite effect.

Excessive alcohol intake can also lead to legal problems. These may result from driving offences, drunk and disorderly behaviour, or violent crime due to the impulsivity and lack of self-control caused by alcohol. Involvement with the legal establishment does not tend to help a depressed mood.

Alcohol problems account for:

33 per cent of domestic accidents

40 per cent of fatal domestic fires

15 to 30 per cent of workplace accidents.

Depression is also associated with an increased rate of accidents and so the combination can be worrying.

Some antidepressants are sedative. If they are taken with alcohol, a person can be seriously sedated and at risk of their breathing stopping. In addition, many antidepressants are broken down in the liver. Because alcohol can damage the liver, the levels of these antidepressants in the body will be higher in people who are also drinking heavily. This can lead to an increase in side effects from the antidepressants.

What causes the link between alcohol and depression?

There are a number of ways in which alcohol and depression may be linked.

Links with brain function

Over the last decade new research has shed light on the way alcohol affects the brain, and in the ways in which the brain is affected in depression. It is now known that some of the systems that are involved in producing the symptoms of low mood, anxiety, poor sleep and reduced appetite in depression are also affected by alcohol. This is one explanation of why alcohol can cause depression.

Psychosocial links

There are many potential psychological and social reasons for links between alcohol and depression.

Stressful life events can precipitate both alcohol problems and depression.

People with alcohol problems report more incidences of neglect and poor parenting as children than those without. These factors may also increase the risk of developing depression.

Genetic links

It is possible to inherit an increased likelihood of both alcohol problems and depression.

Alcohol problems are more frequent in the children of those who have severe alcohol problems. It is difficult to know what exactly is inherited. It could be a tolerance (or lack of it) to the effects of alcohol, or differences in the way alcohol affects various systems in the brain.

The genetic basis of depression is also well established. It is well known that having a first-degree relative (ie a parent or sibling) with depression increases your chances of having depression in later life.

Studies of depressed patients show that their relatives not only have an increased risk of depression, but also a number of other conditions including alcohol problems.

SOURCE: http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/depression/alcoholanddepression_000486.htm

Chris Wheeler

Comment by Chris Wheeler

July 13, 2007 @ 12:17 am

Follow the link please.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/depression/alcoholanddepression_000486.htm

Chris Wheeler

Comment by kevin

July 13, 2007 @ 12:51 am

“Over the last decade new research has shed light on the way alcohol affects the brain, and in the ways in which the brain is affected in depression. It is now known that some of the systems that are involved in producing the symptoms of low mood, anxiety, poor sleep and reduced appetite in depression are also affected by alcohol. This is one explanation of why alcohol can cause depression.”

If that is what you’re referring to, then it’s not particularly solid data. That was the closest thing I found on the page to depression caused specifically by alcohol.

In fact, in the section titled “What causes the link between alcohol and depression?” it lists Psychosocial (what I refer to in my article) and Genetic links, which are correlations and not causes. Alcohol and depression are correlated, yes, I never disputed that. Many people who drink alcohol are depressed, and many depressed people drink alcohol – the two come hand in hand, but not necessarily because alcohol causes depression.

Here’s one… “The Role of Alcohol in Depression:

People are frequently told that alcohol is a “depressant” and may erroneously think that alcohol causes depression (makes a person become emotionally depressed). This is a bit of a misconception. For people who have been alcohol dependent for a long time, alcohol can have a toxic effect on their serotonin neuro-transmitters, but that does not necessarily lead to depression or anxiety. In other words, not all heavy or long time drinkers will become depressed. (Berrgren, 2002)”

http://www.agingincanada.ca/alcohol_and_depression.htm

More research: http://alcoholism.about.com/od/depress/Depression_and_Alcohol.htm

Certainly, this is still an area of ongoing research.

Comment by steff

July 13, 2007 @ 1:24 am

Dear Kevin:
enclosed are my extremely fragmented thoughts.
They jump all over the place because i dont have an attention span, but i sat here thinking real hard about what you’ve written (and written several times before) anyway. It might not make sense, and for that, i apologize. but not really. otherwise i would have just deleted it.

Sincerely, steff.

You state that alcohol affects the nervous system;interrupts signals from the brain, yet you believe that alcohol does -not- interfere with mental capabilities?
When everything slows down and you can’t understand the conversation, it isn’t just because your ears aren’t working.
What about the next morning when you wake up in a room wondering what the hell happened? are these all physiological effects of alcohol?
the body and mind are tied together; how do you differentiate; where is the line drawn?

i understand, however, that your foremost contention was in regards to alcohol removing one’s inhibitions; used as a scapegoat for the actions caused, in truth, by one’s ‘inner self.’

everybody has an id.
but is the ego no less a part of who we are?
should people be defined solely by that impulsive, pleasure-seeking, animalistic part of us?

If you have nothing to hide, that’s fine.
i’m just saying that the pit within the avocado is only a very small part of the whole picture.
alcohol does not -change- a person, but it strips away a lot of -who they are.-
People may be born with something already in them, but that shouldn’t have to define their entire being. People were given their inhibitions for a reason. they are no less a part of you than the desires you suppress.
i am not a fan of determinism. people have *choice*. people *choose* to suppress things sometimes. should people not be recognized when they *choose* to suppress an impulse in hopes of a more beneficial outcome?
societal pressures are built into us. it has made us who we are, afterall, -people- built society. whether or not that’s a good thing, is an entirely different story.

i’ve got to say though, i agree with the big picture. alcohol is not an excuse. own up to the things you do. there was always the choice not to drink it in the first place.

plus the outside part of the avocado tastes soooo much better in sushi.

i tried to write a lot more but my reply just started sounding dumber and dumber. i know i kind of dived down the slippery slope and straight into armageddon but it all makes sense and relates in my head.

Comment by Chris Wheeler

July 13, 2007 @ 11:46 am

“Up to 40 per cent of people who drink heavily have symptoms that resemble a depressive illness.

However, when these same people are not drinking heavily, only 5 per cent of men and 10 per cent of woman have symptoms meeting the diagnostic criteria for depression – not that different from the rates of depression in the general population.

About 5 to 10 per cent of people with a depressive illness also have symptoms of an alcohol problem.”

Thats from the first section. 40% of people who drink display symptoms of depression. While not drinking, THOSE SAME PEOPLE, only 10% of men (assuming they did half men and half women, then thats really only 5% of the whole group tested) and 5% of women (thats 2.5% if half the group tested was female) display signs of depression. So in total thats 7.5% of the people originally tested displayed signs of depression while sober. Which it says are “not that different from the rates of depression in the general population.”

I think that shows that even people who are not normally depressed are more inclined to be depressed while drinking. They are obviously going to be depressed about things that occured during their sober lives but alcohol was the trigger not the result of sober thought.

Additionally, alcohol can be a chemical inbalance. As such there are drugs and chemicals to treat the illness. My mohter, and two of my aunts as well a s large number of peopl in society all take drugs to reduce the effect that their depression has on their everyday life because it is a chemical inbalance in their system. Now if depression can be reduced using various drugs and chemical ingredients then it stands to reason that there are drugs and chemical ingredients out there that can in fact do the opposite and increase depression simply by mixing the chemicals that are causing the depression original with chemicals that are introduced to the body via some other source. As far as I am concerned alcohol is one of them and as far as I’m concerned there is science that proves this.

I chose that sight because it does cover both sides, The side that people dirnk because they are depressed and the side that they become more depressed, sometimes without and predisposition to being depressed. The two sides go hand in hand and together they are a pretty potent combinations, one of lifes destructive cycles. But I believe it is both, and I have said that right from the begining that “I agree that many people use alcohol as an ‘excuse’ to behave differently”. Some people use it as a crutch and others I bileive are completly suseptible to the influence that the alcohol provides. To me, driving while drunk, getting someone knocked up, suicide (which is common among alcoholics) are all irrational things. They may all have had beginnings in sober life, the driver may be arrogant and cocky, the guy may have always dreamed of sleeping with that girl, and the suicide may have already been depressed, but at the end of the day all those people had never done those stupid things while sober, because rationally it does not make sense. When alcohol is introduced rational thoughts are ignored and people are more likely to do these things. Alcohol causes irrational thoughts. I really don’t know how else to say it.

As you may have noticed, this is a pretty touchy issue for me. It is something that is pretty common in my family. My father was an alcoholic and I have seen him go from being a happy person to being very sad and depressed after 2 or 3 beers. The things he is dwelling on are from his sober life but the fact remains that while sober, those smae thoughts were not depressing. When he was not drinking, he was hardly ever depressed, and when he was it was because there were genuine reasons to be. Another indicative factor that alcohol increased or induced his depression is that he has now stopped drinking. He would be the first to tell you that since he has stopped drinking he has not been depressed. Not less depressed, but genuinly not depressed about things that are occuring, and that were occuring in his life.

There are all sorts of chemicals out there that we have no idea how they work. Bee venom for example has hundreds of components that we can not even iddentify let alone understand how they affect the human body in such a profound way. Alcohol physically impares the body, delaying reaction times and slowing movement. This is done by introducing it to our body and having interact with out system. Because it has such a profound affect on our physicall well being I find it hard to believe that is has no affect what so ever on out mental capacity.

I got pretty upset last night when I responded. By my second response I was feeling pretty low. I understand that this site is for exploration and provoking discussion and initially that is why I responded. I wanted a chance to explain my side of the story, which in the end I did get to do. I’m not blaming you for making me upset or saying that I am angry or offended by your position. Everyone is entitled to their own oppinion (right or wrong) and I don’t fault you for having the opinion you do. We have both had experiences in our lives that have lead to different perspectives.

We both agree that alcohol can be used as an excuse, and that when introduced to the body it can physically affect us, and that it can go hand in hand iwht depression to be used as a crutch or an excuse to dwell on depressing thoughts that you already had. But I believe, and I think the facts that I posted at the beginning of my post support this, that alcohol can also cause depression by changing and affecting out mental capacity. I think this extends to things that people do while drunk, such as drinking and driving and having unprotected sex, because to rational sober people (most of the time, there are people out there who get themselves into those situations even while sober) those things are not even possiblities and they would say “I would never do that.”

Thats really all I have to say. I’m not trying to convince anybody, I’m just putting here what I have experienced and what I think on this issue, which is what you wanted from this sight. It has provoked discussion and I am glad it has. I did let it affect me personally, perhaps to much, but at the end of the day I am glad we have shared our opinions.

Chris Wheeler

Comment by Chris Wheeler

July 13, 2007 @ 11:53 am

Error (6th paragraph): Additionally, alcohol can be a chemical inbalance.

Correction: Additionally, depression can be a chemical innbalance.

Chris Wheeler

Comment by anna loza

July 13, 2007 @ 1:35 pm

to kevin and chris’s argument. ive just written a midterm on this, and alcohol acts on neurons in the brain by blocking a neurotransmitter receptor. It doesn’t cause you to have bad thoughts about yourself while drunk, and it doesn’t make you sad. It is a “downer” drug, so unlike ecstasy it will not make you euphoric, but it will deplete that euphoria and hence make you less energetic. but it is not something that actually makes you think “wow im so sad”, but it makes you less energetic and generally “down”…and people interpret that any way they want. some people just fall asleep and others just contemplate and come to the conclusion taht this down feeling is really because theres sadness.

but i guess thats just my opinion too.

i agree that alcohol should definitely not be used as an excuse for anything, and like steff said theres always the choice not to drink in the first place. and when you get to the point where you cant understand what people are saying, i doubt youd be doing much like driving a car. i think for that you at least have to have some cognitive abvility to know that you WANT to drive. i dont know though, because ive never been drunk, so i guess i cant really say.

but i have to say i agree with kevin in that alcohol is not an excuse for anything. driving drunk, most often, when you read stories of poeple who did, ive never read ” i didnt know what i was doing”, its always “i thought itd be ok”…so that shows that youre thinking anyways, expect youre thinking wrong. and i dont know if its alcohol or ego or what, but the point is you have cognitive abilities, but then when you screw up you say “oh, i was drunk”,..but you were thinking, so i dont see the problem.

and about the sex thing. yeah, people have sex all the time. and even though you might not remember why or who you slept with, to be doing it while you are you have to have some concious thought. so once again..choices choices. choices to leave the bar with the guy/girl, choices to go to their place, choices to sleep there. im not talking about when the girl is about to fall over and the guy carries her out. thats bordering rape. im saying when youre happily drunk and laughing along and youre actively discussing and knowing wahts going to happen. not when youre collapsing.

so i guess my point would be that yeah, alcohol affects you, but unless youre so drunk you cant stand (at which point you cant cause harm anyways), youre actively thinking about your actions, because youre not a zombie. even if you dont remmeber it, you still chose to do it while you did (amnesia happens because of the brain damage of drinking, like getting hit by a car and forgetting the hour before the accident. but it can be remembered sometimes). so basically, you choose to do the things you do, alcohol or not. and about the depression thing…people respond to alcohol differently, like is said, some fall asleep because of the downer effects, while others just think sad thoughts. depends how you react, but like chris said without the alcohol the person likely wont be like that. so if youre only sad during happy hour…stop drinking. but then theres the whole point of poeple tyring to excape their problems, but i heard that doesnt work too well either because of the same reason.

but generally..”wow, im drunk, wow, i feel so awsome, lets go grind with that guy…cause, well, im drunk so to hell with it”. like i said, i wouldnt really know, im guessing tahts how it happens.

Comment by anna loza

July 13, 2007 @ 1:44 pm

so now that i actually read the post and not just the comments, i totaly agree with kevin on everything.

ive gotten to the point where ive felt dizzy, and if i wanted to i could probably start acting goofy because it would be permissible, but there was no point. i do that anyways. most of the people who tell me they dont get drunk are those who are capable of acting druk without any illicit substances. and by that i mean “loose and friendly” and just able to laugh without constarint. shy people take alcohol to loosen up, but people who already are dont need it. and yeah..basically, its a placebo in terms of mental capabilities. driving drunk, you cant see, you dont have reflexes. thats why you hit the car/person. you can think, but you cant have motor function. drunk guys most often dont get erections. motor disfunction. but they choose to try. so choices, followed by motor incapabilities.

coffee. if you want it to wake you up, youll get a jolt. when i want to sleep right after two espresso shots, i can go to sleep anyways.

its all palcebo.
yes..i agree with kevin.

Comment by Kevin

July 13, 2007 @ 3:18 pm

Chris, I didn’t mean to offend you with anything. I too have had experiences with alcoholic family members – my father was one of them – though it was not a case of depression so much as it was reckless drinking.

As for alcohol-induced depression, I’m not 100% convinced, although I see your point. I still feel that if one were perfectly happy and had nothing to be sad about, alcohol would not in itself cause you to become depressed. You had to have started somewhere, with a sad thought whilst sober, in order to become depressed with alcohol.

Comment by Kevin

July 13, 2007 @ 3:22 pm

@Steff:

Should we choose to become someone we are not? Should we, as individuals, conceal our ‘true’ self so that society will take a liking to us? What difference does self image make?

I cannot answer these things. They are out of my realm of discussion – and I will leave the rather tricky ones to philosophers and other such thinkers.

What I’m saying is that alcohol gives us an excuse to let go of the facades. Whether your ‘inner self’ or id, or ego, or whatever else, is a ‘better’ representation of you is none of my business.

Personally, I’d rather people not be so two-faced about everything. A society built on facades and lies does not seem very healthy to me.

Comment by christine

July 13, 2007 @ 4:56 pm

if what Anna said is true, then alcohol just makes you act like you do when tired..and when I read Kevin’s post this morning before school and before most of the comments, I was thinking about how many drunk people act exactly like they do when tired… they still have the ability to think clearly if they really tried hard enough but just don’t bother.

I didn’t really contribute to anyone else’s thoughts, oh well.. random thing.. I just realized that the last 3 times I’ve had anything alcoholic have been at your house chewie..

Comment by George

July 15, 2007 @ 11:07 pm

It certainly is a problem where alcohol is used by some as a substitute for genuine effort towards easing their insecurities.

People generally drink to open up and be more easygoing true, and I have my doubts about at which point drinking is a bad thing. Some might say that the whole act that you need to drink just to put yourself is not being true to yourself and doesnt fix and problems in the long run. However, lots of people are fine, secure, and are just looking to unwind (the whole “taking down a few cold ones before the game” phenomenon), so it could be treated in the same way as the mental effects of a relaxing bath or some light exercise. It’s hard to tell, really.

I have to disagree with you on the actual physiological effect though. For me personally, I’m very rational and remarkably clear-headed after a bit of alcohol (I might even say even a bit more than when I’m sober since I’m more inclined to focus on a few things than several things.) However it is very noticeable after consuming some more to see the “loosening up” of inhibitions even with my rationality intact (and I’m not talking about getting piss drunk here). It might just be your individual reaction to it or the amount of alcohol you consumed. Some people drink and don’t get mentally affected but get an immediate physical rejection to it (get red easily etc.). Some people drink don’t get physically affected but get mentally affected quickly (like me). Once again the reaction really depends on the person.

On the subject of depression, lasting depression is bound to happen with any continuous (and frequent enough) use of chemicals which alters your usual mental chemical structure. As for immediate influence, it seems to go both ways, once again, depending on the person and situation. For me, I tend to immediately cheer up, and definitely go into a “happy drunk” mode. There have been a some times when it has just exacerbated any current problems I had, but on a overwhelming whole, I do tend to cheer up. I suspect, the effect really depends on the person and situation.

Comment by rayshoe

July 17, 2007 @ 10:02 am

Alcoholism has definitely been correlated to changing levels of serotonin in the body. It appears as if the body responds to alcohol consumption by a temporary increase in bodily serotonin level followed by a decrease afterwards due to its influence on the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) mechanism(ref below). This means that both kevin’s statement of alcohol causing (momentary) euphoria and Chris and others’ statements of (extended) depression should both be valid statements.

However in terms of Kevin’s argument against alcohol causing depression, I do believe there has been some extensive and fairly convincing research on the topic of serotonin deficiency linking it to depression/suicide and increased alcohol consumption below. There should be no dispute as to whether alcohol causes depression or not (exceptions are anomalous and don’t matter). Below is a short list of refs. for those more interested – most are available in pdf online.

(1)Cornelius, J.R. et al., 1995. Disproportionate suicidality in patients with comorbid major depression and alcoholism. Am. J. Psychiatry 152 (3), 358-364.

(2)Cornelius, J.R. et al.,1996. Patterns of suicidality and alcohol use in alcoholics with major depression. Alcohol. Clin. Exp. Res. 20 (8), 1451-1455.

(3)Davidson, K.M., Blackburn, I.M., 1998. Co-morbid depression and drinking outcome in those with alcohol dependence. Alcohol. 33 (5), 482-487.

(4)Drevets, W.C., 2000. Functional anatomical abnormalities in limbic and prefrontal cortical structures in major depression. Prog. Brain Res. 126, 413-431.

Comment by rayshoe

July 17, 2007 @ 10:03 am

??? I had more references ???

Comment by rayshoe

July 17, 2007 @ 10:05 am

(5)Gilman, S.E., Abraham, H.D., 2001. A longitudinal study of the order of onset of alcohol dependence and major depression. Drug Alcohol Depend. 63 (3), 277-286.

(6)Juckel, G. et al., 1999. Electrical stimulation of rat medial prefrontal cortex enhances forebrain serotonin output: implications for electroconvulsive therapy and transcranial magnetic stimulation in depression. Neuropsychopharmacology 21 (3), 391-398.

(7)Leo Sher et al. Positron emission tomography study of regional brain metabolic responses to a serotonergic challenge in major depressive disorder with and without comorbid lifetime alcohol dependence. European Neuropsychophaymacology 2007.

(8)Mann, J.J. et al., 2000. A serotonin transporter gene promoter polymorphism (5-HTTLPR) and prefrontal cortical binding in major depression and suicide. Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 57 (8), 729-738.

(9)Messa, C. et al., 2003. 5-HT(2A) receptor binding is reduced in drug-naive and unchanged in SSRI-responder depressed patients compared to healthy controls: a PET study. Psychopharmacology (Berl) 167 (1), 72-78.

(10)****Sullivan, L.E. et al., 2005. The prevalence and impact of alcohol problems in major depression: a systematic review. Am. J. Med. 118 (4), 330-341.

(11)http://www.currentseparations.com/issues/18-1/cs18-1d.pdf

Comment by kevin

July 17, 2007 @ 11:00 am

Both Ray and Chris bring up important points about alcohol and depression – however, that alcohol causes clinical depression was not what I argued against. Indeed, alcohol has many physical effects, not the least of which is the alteration of the chemical makeup of your body.

However, not all people are susceptible to clinical depression, and an important distinction is to be made. Clinical depression is caused by an imbalance in the chemicals in your brain. Non-clinical depression, on the other hand, has no such cause. Non-clinical depression is the kind I am more worried about – no small amount of drugs will likely do much difference, as it is psychological in nature.

My argument is simply that the physical effects of alcohol are overplayed, and that much of what we see in our lives is simply the use of alcohol as an excuse, as an escape from our society of facades.

Comment by rayshoe

July 17, 2007 @ 12:09 pm

Yeah, you’re right Kevin. I think the point you were trying to get across was the more socially defined problem of behaviour – people using alcohol as an excuse to behave irresponsibly, like having sex, or doing stupid stuff – having more to do with the psychology of how we think and prejudice alcohol based on its given social image.

Chris, on the other hand was coming from a more medical stance – addressing concerns like how alchol actually affects our body from a scientific perspective and how alcohol truly influences how we think and what we do.

From what I see, both of you guys are right, seeing as how depression can be defined from both a medical(clinical) and social(non-clinical) perspective. But, looking at behaviour in general, I think that we would all agree that people do some pretty stupid stuff that has nothing to the clinical effects of alcohol.

Comment by amc

July 23, 2007 @ 7:42 pm

Alcohol makes me sober. lawl.

Comment by amc

July 23, 2007 @ 9:00 pm

My response to responses, less the original post:

We have social inhibitions for a reason. To be able to “censor” yourself in important situations, or to be able to adapt to those around you is an important social skill. Would I call this being “fake”? It could be, but it is necessary for a society to exist.

The only way we can truly be individuals is if we strip all existence of social influences. And because “who we are” is essentially our past experiences and conditioning, means in order to be individuals we technically have to be “reborn” and rid of all possible social conditioning. And if we removed all social influences to become individuals, that essentially wouldn’t be a “society” in the first place.

In response to what Kevin asked, “should we choose to become someone we are not? Should we, as individuals, conceal our ‘true’ self so that society will take a liking to us? What difference does self image make?”

Our “true” selves are indecent (as in ourselves without social decency). The only reason why we are able to still interact with others, is because of this self-image. And society does tell us what is “good” and what is “bad, what is “right” and what is “wrong”. If we meet little Timmy and everyone calls him a “good” kid, is it because he deep down, after stripped of all social influences, his raw form of himself is actually “pure of all evil”? Or is Timmy simply a spitting image of what society defines as “good”?

Self image is essentially a social skill. And as much as it sucks (or rocks), society will exist with us as long as man continues to interact. So the only way, is to adapt. There’s no such thing as “true individualism”, unless we all become wildchilds (stripped of all social interaction from birth) – which I personally don’t think would make a great world. The most we can do is be “different” (i.e. the importance of creativity).

As for alcohol, I think a society build on the joy of losing this social inhibition does not seem healthy to me. Do we want to see the true deep-down raw form of people? Do we want to strip that social inhibition away, and meet that so-called “true” self? People blame alcohol, but essentially that is just an indecent raw form of one’s self. It’s still one’s self however.

Can we blame alcohol? We chose to drink that alcohol in the first place. Can we shoot someone and blame the gun?

I don’t understand how alcohol can be an excuse.

More, I don’t understand why it’s great to become drunk. I prefer having my social inhibitions – even if it means I’m a puppet of society. I find it more decent.

To Steff: I just realized we said similar things.

Comment by Kevin

July 23, 2007 @ 9:46 pm

Adapting is a social skill?

Well, I would like to argue that standing up for one’s own individuality in the face of all adversity, in the face of society is a more important social skill.

It’s not hard to become invisible in society – to follow what everyone else does, to give up yourself. But then, who are you?

Adapting is not the only way. Which is what I want everyone to realize. Instead of adapting, we can carve out a place for ourselves in society. We don’t have to be wildchilds – we simply need to stand up for who we are. Adapting is great, to an extent, but what are we adapting to? Adapting to the environment when it changes, that’s good. Adapting to societal pressures because there’s no other way, or adapting so that we ‘fit in’? Who makes up the social rules of what is “decent” and what is not?

Carving out a place in society for yourself does not involve adapting to the rest of the world, and it certainly doesn’t destroy the fabric of society.

Do I blame the alcohol if I drink and act like an ass? No, I blame myself for hiding behind something. But does it matter? No, because everyone else will attribute it to the alcohol. Thus, there will be no consequence for me in societal standing. Do people blame the gun for murder? Sure – all the time. Why do you think we have tough gun laws?

Maybe alcohol isn’t an excuse for you – but somebody else will invariably excuse you for whatever you do when you’re drunk, because alcohol has that special place in society.

Comment by amc

July 23, 2007 @ 11:02 pm

“Individualism” versus “being different”. I think our definitions are colliding, as I see individualism as ridding all possible social influence (which is impossible unless born without a society), and “being different” as being unique within the society you live in.

But essentially, because society does exist and will always exist, we need to work with it. And what I mean by working with it, is we need to be able to adapt to
situations – but not necessarily adapting to society as a whole.

My grandfather used to always say “we can’t get by without many faces”. Am I going to use my jackass image I use to some friends, in the same situation of someone new I meet? Am I going to act childish and silly, to my potential employer? Some people can’t handle insults so I stop myself, and some people love them. So which one of these is actually my “true” self?

So yes, adapting to situations when in society is a social skill. Now giving yourself up entirely for everything you could be, everything you believe in, so you can become a puppet of society? That’s wouldn’t constitute as a social skill at all.

I’m not advocating the extreme to give yourself up completely, I’m just saying that we can’t rid the fact that in order to work with society, we need to adapt.

“How much” we adapt, is more the issue than “should we adapt”.

–
As for saying alcohol or guns are an excuse, yes society says it is an excuse because it makes everything easier. But how can we say, from the point of view as the user, that it was alcohol’s fault I was an idiot? Or that the gun shot the person, not me?

From the person who directly made the choice to consume alcohol in the first place, alcohol is not an excuse.

Let’s change the wording: Can I blame alcohol when I chose to drink that alcohol in the first place? Can I shoot someone and blame the gun?

Ironically if you think about it from a social standpoint (not from the actual consumer), if people thought of alcohol as not being an excuse and people were to take responsibility for their actions even when drunk, then alcohol would lose that special place. The only reason why alcohol is made to be so special and desired, is because it gives us that “excuse” as a society.

(Which is actually everything you said. So I think you misinterpreted my original comment. You know that I would never advocate anything against being “different” and “creative”.)

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